Tactical: know anyone selling an FN FAL?

[Leviathan]

I am looking for an FN FAL.  Preferably Inch Pattern, but I will buy Metric if it is all I can find.  I am not looking for one from DS Arms.  They are too ridiculously expensive.  I would rather buy a simple milspec weapon and modify it myself.  Or actually not, because I like iron sights on a 7.62mm.  I DON'T want anything from Century.  An Embel would be nice.  Or an Argentine.  Also, does any one know the best place to find milsurp 7.62?  I will handload the bulk of my ammo (yes, I handload - yes, I can load you some for a low price) but I want some cheap plinking ammo for the break in so that I do not have to wait to handload a batch before I shoot. Please get back to me if any of you folks have seen an FAL in a gunstore or online somewhere.  If you help me find one that results in a sale I promise to load you 200 pistol or 100 rifle rounds of match grade premium ammo in whatever caliber you choose, using new cases and your choice of projectile - free and with my thanks.

Levi

[Drewthetexan]

7.62x51?

[Drewthetexan]

Looks like most places combine .308 and 7.62x51 as the same round.  

http://gun-deals.com/ammo.php?caliber=.308 has a list of places you can look through.  

Edit: This list is a little better, I think: http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/.308_Winchester_7.62x51mm

[Jib]

Milsurp ammo:
South African, berdan primed – 49.8 c / rnd
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=A308SA&groupid=26

Pakistan ammo, berdan primed – 40c / rnd
http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/ammo-for-rifles/308-win-7-62x51-nato-/p/308-pof-fmj-ammo%2C-250-rounds-in-a-ammo-can-/cPath/12_43/products_id/3488


Guns:
Imbel receiver, 24” Bennett barrel, scope. $795
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=156056757

Imbel receiver, Imbel kit, 16” barrel. $850
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=155697199

[Drewthetexan]

Levi, PM sent.

[Leviathan]

Thanks a lot guys!!!  Pakistan ammo?  Wow...I want it to go down range, not blow up in my face!  South African stuff is outstanding!  I wish it wasn't berdan primed to I could reload it.  But oh well.  I am going to use starline brass for the reloads.  I like their nickel plated brass.  it makes retrieval a lot easier.  especially for something that launches brass as far as the FAL.  Thansk again, guys.  And I promise not to forget the get that ammo to whoever gives me a lead to a weapon that results in a purchase.

Levi

[Leviathan]

7.62x51?

Yep, 7.62x51mm, 7.62 NATO, and .308 Winchester are all the same round.  There are some differences in case wall thickness between the military 7.62 spec and the commercial spec.  The brass is thicker for the military, i have heard, because military primers are very weak to prevent negligent or accidental discharge.  The weaker primers, however, cause pressures to be too low for consistent trajectory.  So they compensated by beefing up powder.  Kind of lame.  it's a relic of days when mass production manufacturing could not produce the uniform results that it does today.  the thick cases also resist being ripped apart by the violent action of the extraction process.  military rifles are very merciless and do not care about your brass.  that is because they want to function flawlessly and keep you alive.  the expended brass must be extracted positively and quickly.  thin commercial brass gets wrecked.  military brass is more resilient.

the problem is most of it is berdan primed, which is much harder to reprime than commercial brass.  the solution?  buy already sized and primed once fired brass from a company that has a machine that does it.  that  also makes reloading much faster since all you have to do it drop in your measured charge and cap it with a bullet seated to the proper case depth.  And you are done.

Sorry if this is TMI.  i just thought a smart guy like drew might get a kick out of the explanation ... even if he already knew it.

Levi

[Drewthetexan]

7.62x51?

Yep, 7.62x51mm, 7.62 NATO, and .308 Winchester are all the same round.  There are some differences in case wall thickness between the military 7.62 spec and the commercial spec.  The brass is thicker for the military, i have heard, because military primers are very weak to prevent negligent or accidental discharge.  The weaker primers, however, cause pressures to be too low for consistent trajectory.  So they compensated by beefing up powder.  Kind of lame.  it's a relic of days when mass production manufacturing could not produce the uniform results that it does today.  the thick cases also resist being ripped apart by the violent action of the extraction process.  military rifles are very merciless and do not care about your brass.  that is because they want to function flawlessly and keep you alive.  the expended brass must be extracted positively and quickly.  thin commercial brass gets wrecked.  military brass is more resilient.

the problem is most of it is berdan primed, which is much harder to reprime than commercial brass.  the solution?  buy already sized and primed once fired brass from a company that has a machine that does it.  that  also makes reloading much faster since all you have to do it drop in your measured charge and cap it with a bullet seated to the proper case depth.  And you are done.

Sorry if this is TMI.  i just thought a smart guy like drew might get a kick out of the explanation ... even if he already knew it.

Levi

I read it twice.

ETA: I knew there were small differences.  The biggest, perhaps not so small, is the difference in pressure between .308 and 7.62x51 rounds, I'm guessing from the extra powder.  I don't remember the details, but something like commercial .308 is 50,000 psi and military 7.62 is 62,000 psi.  Could be a problem under some circumstances. (probably not for the FN FAL)

[Leviathan]

Looks like I am buying an Entreprise 16" carbine built from a new production Imbel parts kit on a US made milled receiver.  I would have liked to have had one with the thicker Squad Automatic Weapon barrel but no one is importing those right now.  I can always fit one on later if I want.  Thanks to those who tried to help.  For those interested, in my searching, I have found outstanding ammo deal at Sportsman's Guide on sale.  Check it out.

Levi

[Leviathan]

Hey Drew,


   I have just decided on the make and model.  Supliers are still up in the air.  Atlantic Arms looks promising.  They are selling them cheaper than prices straight from Entreprise.  Only $830, which means about $700 wholesale.  The vice president of the company that I work for has an FFL and was a pistol champion in the Police Pistol Combat shooting circuit for many years and therefor has lots of connections.  He gets weapons on the cheap.  Sometimes for below wholesale.  

Speaking of which, I know you are in the market for an AR.  I know you said that you wanted to build you own.  And I certainly think that is a good idea - but only IF you start with a completely stripped lower and a completely disassembled parts kit.  That is the only way that you will completely know your rifle inside and out.  The trigger assembly is the mother of all bitches in that narrow cavity in the lower receiver.  My large hands and big fingers had a hard time with it so I just bought a drop in match trigger group.  If you have smaller hands than mine you might be able to pull the intricate work off.  I could have done it, but honestly wanted a two stage match trigger for more accurate rapid fire.  It was worth $100 not to have to bother with the small parts in the contricted space.  One word of caution - ALWAYS WEAR SAFETY GOGGLES when you are assembling a rifle, and ESPECIALLY WHEN WORKING WITH SPRING LOADED PARTS such as trigger groups.  You might catch a spring in the eye!  You have two, but you are better off not considering one of them a spare.  

   So you can gain a much better knowledge of your rifle by assembling it but I know of a great deal online at CDNN.  It may be such a great deal you might just forget your build.  Go to http://www.cdnninvestments.com/  and go to page 5 and look at the CDNN Custom Carbine...$800.

   But if you still wanna build your own rifle, here ya go.  The cheapest price I've found on a parts kit including everything but a stripped lower (and disconnector).  It's an A1 parts kit. Hope I helped.

Levi

[Drewthetexan]

Thanks for keeping me posted, Levi.  I'm curious on the make and model. 

I do have a stripped lower already, and one of these days I'm going to get around to ordering the lower parts kit (along with the rest of it).  I've been debating the two-stage trigger assembly, and will probably go ahead with it, but it seems like price gouging to pay an extra $100.  I definitely want a 16" upper reciever group with a flat top; I'm going to put a standard carry handle on it with the flip up sights.  It's meant to be a basic no frills build, but I want to be able to add upgrades later if I want.

I'm all about eye safety.  Working with electronics I've seen plenty of shit explode that isn't supposed to.  It's mostly funny, especially when it happens to someone else - until someone loses an eye!

The CDNN deal is a steal.  I think that was a S&W M&P build; MSRP is around $1200.  Wish I had the money right now. 

Did you leave off the parts kit link?  I didn't see one on CDNN's webpage or catalog.  About the best I've found is $55-60ish, but I don't know about shipping.

[Jib]

Sounds like my build, I finished my AR last year.  I bought my lower parts kit from Brownells and most my other parts too.  http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=13040/sku/Lower_Parts_Kit  If you make an account check the box that says you are a student.  Some of the items have a really good discount.

After some shooting I did decide to upgrade the trigger.  I did a basic clean up of the surfaces with a dremel buffer wheel and some compound and installed some reduced power springs http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7582/Product/AR_15_REDUCED_POWER_SPRING_KIT  That made for a nice trigger with out the expensive of the drop in match trigger.

[Leviathan]

Nope, sorry.  I didn't post a link to the parts kits.  These are M-16A1 rifles from the Vietnam era.  I am thinking of building one for my dad, a Vietnam vet.  With the A1 you are going to get a fixed aperature sight, fixed carry handle, and really groovy looking triangular forend.  I suspect that these are regifts to the US, like the M1 Carbines that made their way from Greece and other countries back to America.  I suspect that these are Israeli rifles that were sold new or gifted to Israel after our idiotic adventure in Southeast Asia.  My understanding is that when surplus rarely comes from the US military, it is usually demilled with a band saw, torch, etc.  That is why I suspect these are re-imported M-16s.  The cheapest price I have found for them is here:  

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/products_id/3920

If you are looking for a cheap fully built AR the best deal in the industry with the lowest price is this:

http://www.gunenvystore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=7549&cPath=33&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=export_feed#googlebase

No bells, no whistles, it just throws lead down range accurately.  It's made by Olympic Arms, and their AR's are incredibly TIGHT and produce outstanding accuracy.  If you need any help with any thing just give me a PM or hit me up for my email.  I also have AGI courses for both M-16 Armorer and kit building.  I have TONS of AGI courses.  If you have a gun, I've probably got a course on it.  Let me know if you need any thing

Levi

[Leviathan]

made for a nice trigger with out the expensive of the drop in match trigger.

That is the route I would have gone too.  Unfortunately other circumstances interviened, in the form of a very pretty nymphomanical lady friend, that had me busy doing things other than focusing on my build.  Before I know it had less than 1 week before I had to go out of town for training.  I had to go to this course.  So I overnighted a trigger and quickly assembles the lower and broke the rifle in before the road trip.  Hey, I wasn'
t getting any thing done, but it's not like I wasn't busy!

Levi

[Drewthetexan]

After some shooting I did decide to upgrade the trigger.  I did a basic clean up of the surfaces with a dremel buffer wheel and some compound and installed some reduced power springs http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7582/Product/AR_15_REDUCED_POWER_SPRING_KIT  That made for a nice trigger with out the expensive of the drop in match trigger.

Sweet.  I love using my dremel tool.  I might give that a try!

 

Nope, sorry.  I didn't post a link to the parts kits.  These are M-16A1 rifles from the Vietnam era.  I am thinking of building one for my dad, a Vietnam vet.  With the A1 you are going to get a fixed aperature sight, fixed carry handle, and really groovy looking triangular forend.  I suspect that these are regifts to the US, like the M1 Carbines that made their way from Greece and other countries back to America.  I suspect that these are Israeli rifles that were sold new or gifted to Israel after our idiotic adventure in Southeast Asia.  My understanding is that when surplus rarely comes from the US military, it is usually demilled with a band saw, torch, etc.  That is why I suspect these are re-imported M-16s.  The cheapest price I have found for them is here: 

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/products_id/3920

groovy wasn't ever the word I thought of on those handguards! I guess it's functional.  Also missing the brass deflector. No biggie for right handed shooters (I'm right handed), lefty's eat brass all day! It's a visual that always makes me laugh. 

made for a nice trigger with out the expensive of the drop in match trigger.

That is the route I would have gone too.  Unfortunately other circumstances interviened, in the form of a very pretty nymphomanical lady friend, that had me busy doing things other than focusing on my build.  Before I know it had less than 1 week before I had to go out of town for training.  I had to go to this course.  So I overnighted a trigger and quickly assembles the lower and broke the rifle in before the road trip.  Hey, I wasn'
t getting any thing done, but it's not like I wasn't busy!

Levi

Ha! Life decisions.  I think you chose wisely.