Tactical: know anyone selling an FN FAL?

[Leviathan]

There are many aftermarket case deflectors available.  Or, if you enjoy pains in the asses, you can just tune your ejector slowly and painstakingly by hand.  I saw a guy who had a DPMS Sportical (which is also currently what I have, and comes without a case deflector) attach a wooden home made case deflector with industrial grade double sided tape.  *shrugs*  Hey, it worked.  I installed one on my top rail that deflects the brass perfectly 1 foot from my right foot every time.  Makes it easy to retrieve.

Levi

[Drewthetexan]

LOL @ wooden deflector.  Whatever works. :)

[Leviathan]

Hey guys.  I just wanted to let you know that I made an order today.  What I ordered in the end surprised me.  It was a Century 21" barrel.  I know, I know.  I was not keen on Century.  But they have raised their reputation and the skill of their workers quite a bit.  I've seen it with my own two eyes with their latest AK builds compares to an old one that I used to have from the mid 90's (which was utter shit).  I spoke with a guy from Centerfire Systems, my favorite milsurp seller.  He sent me some pics of their FALs and stated that these are indeed quality rifles.  The receivers aren't pretty looking, but I am a wholly practical guy, looks be damned.  In fact the uglier and more crude the better. 

Another factor that helped me decide was a 5.5 months build time on my perspective order from DSA.  Entreprise FALs I have learned are really no better than the new Century rifles with $200 tacked on for the name.  Plus, in 2008-9 they made some really bad rifles.  Some were so bad and Entreprise was being so ghey about them that some people were saying that they had to send them off to gunsmiths to get them fixed.  Thats pretty damned sorry.  Another factor was that Century is building 7.62 Barrels and DSA is building .308.  I want to fire both.  I think it is pretty retarded that the more expert company doesn't do what the cheap company does as far as versatility in firing milsurp ammo. 

Anyway, for $745 shipped and coming with 4 magazines it can't be beat.  I don't like the flash supressors on them.  I know that I am being a hypocrite.  Some times I do care what things look like.  I am looking at the design of the original FN and I just feel that the flash supressor will not do much at all for controlling recoil, given that it's design was primarily to provide a launching point for rifle grenades.  I am going to have it cut back to 18" and have a Steyr STG-58 flash supressor threaded onto it.  This will also provide me the threads for the silencer I am going to legally build in the future for it and other 7.62mm rifles.

I will make a range report when a few days after it comes in.

Levi

[Drewthetexan]

Congrats!

I suppose if the flash suppressor doesn't work as well, you should swap it, regardless of looks.  There are some goofy-looking ones out there, though.

You are building a sound suppressor? Or buying one?

Looking forward to the range report.

[Leviathan]

I am building a suppressor.  $50 in materials and free labor plus the federal tax beats shelling out over a grand for the whole deal from a manufacturer.  They are actually simple to make.  If you know how to weld and have threading tools you can make one.  I will put it this way, I've made cabinets and installed floor boards and laid hardwood flooring and tile on top of it and that required more skill than fabricating a suppressor.  If you are going to try, I suggest you make one out of CPVC first before you make the investment of paying the tax and registering something that might work like shit.  You will learn the tricks after a few builds.  And CPVC is easily gotten rid of in fire with no way to tell what you made with it, lol.  CPVC is for medium size pistol calibers only.  And I would only fire about one mag through it.  It's just to be used to learn how to layer the media inside.  Instructional purposes only.  But as soon as you thread it to your barrel you are technically a felon.  So of course I am saying that I uh, have never tried this *cough* and this is all speculation.

Levi

[Drewthetexan]

That's cool.  I've wondered about it.  Mostly interested in the fit of the suppressor to the barrel.  Does the suppressor inside diameter have to closely match that of the barrel, or do you want it slightly larger? I have access to a tap and die set, and I've wire welded a few times.  I wouldn't say I'm terribly proficient at it.

I didn't realize suppressors were so expensive to buy. Federal tax is only $200, right?

[Leviathan]

the tighter the fit the better the sound supression.  i've given mine .04 larger than the bore and it worked so far.  but only time will tell if it is wise.  a supressor close to bore diameter will actually improve accuracy.  i just want to quiet the sound for various reasons.  and yes, the only costs if you build one yourself are the materials and the $200 SBR (short barrel rifle) tax.  really supressors are just a toy.  people claim they like them to preserve their hearing.  on an op that is fine.  but you will fight how you train.  and unless you train with a supressor all of the time, i suspect your marksmanship will suffer when you do, even more so under stress.  and because of wear shooting with one all of the time is expensive.  solution: make your own.  supressors are great for home defense.  if you have ever done house clearing exerscizes you know that will be DEAF after the first round.

Levi

[Leviathan]

   I've had my rifle for about 3 weeks by now.  I was really impressed when I got it.  It appeared well assembled.  The bolt release doesn't work worth a crap, but from what I have seen that is the case with all FAL rifles.  Your have to pull the bolt back a little to get the bolt to drop after it is caught.  This is with all FAL rifles, and is a nuisance to someone who is used to the M-16 platform such as me.  I am sure DSA has fixed this issue. My bolt catch is also worn, so I will be replacing it with a DSA unit.  I have 300 rounds through it so far, 200 of which after working on the receiver without a jam – which brings me to my next segment.

  The finish on the Century is pretty tough.  I found out just how tough.  I was having failures to feed from the left hand side of the mag regardless of ammo used or gas setting.  I handloaded some dummy rounds so that I could safely observe the mechanical function of the rifle with the receiver cover off.  I noticed that the action was extremely choppy and moved in three stages.  I completely degreased the rifle and worked the action many times with no lubricant.  I then disassembled it again and looked for wear marks.  There were hardly any at all.  But I could see that the very coarse and porous protective finish on the inside of the receiver was preventing smooth movement of the bolt carrier.  So I polished the absolute hell out of it, beginning with 100 grit sand paper needed just to break the finish to get to the metal.  Holy smoke, that is an awesome finish on that receiver.  What a pain in the backside to wear through.  But finally when I got to the metal I used progressively finer grades of sandpaper until it felt like glass and reflected like a mirror.  The rifle now runs like a sewing machine on all gas settings except the highest.

   That is one seriously tough finish on the receiver.  I don't know if it is some kind of two part epoxy like a more coarse Duracoat or what, but that stuff is nearly indestructible.  I am never going to be worried about the receiver rusting.  The parts that are numbered do not match, but they are all made by Fabrique Nationale-Herstal.  The parts that were part of the supply rifles that went into the kit appear to be in great shape, with the exception of the bolt catch.  It feels loose and the individual parts seem like they are loose and they wobble quite a bit.  However, function is not impeded and the rifle never fails to lock open on the last round.  The original rifle kit parts are parkerized very nicely, as should be expected from any quality firearm from a reputable company like FN.  I guess I got lucky with every part except for the bolt catch because these parts all look virtually new.  The only part that shows significant wear is the rear aperture sight, but just from adjustment.  I am just thankful that it doesn’t rattle like I have heard some of them do when they get older.  It is tight as a drum, and actually takes some effort to adjust.  The brand new barrel and appears to have a moly coating, as it looks precisely like the finish on my M-4 that I know is moly coated.  I can’t attest to it’s hardiness yet but in time I have hope that it will prove durable.  Modern finishes are cheap, so I can assume its good stuff.

   Now we get into the unfortunate stuff.  The malfunctions were annoying and had me concerned about my investment.  But that proved fairly easy to fix.  As happy as I am with the finish on the receiver, I don’t know how anyone in his right mind would have thought that machine would have functioned with that thick, porous, coarse stuff all over the receiver rails and feed ramp.  The friction created by heat and the eventual loss of oil through spray from function would make even one that ran great new fail to feed.  Even a mentally handicapped person would have known that rifle would not have functioned.  This has lead me to believe that the famous trained monkeys at century still just don’t give a crap, regardless of their recent image whitewash.  First of all, if my rifle was test fired at all they would have known that the thing did not function.  This simply was not done.  I received it with traces of cosmoline inside the rifle and with metal dust from their shop all inside of it.  Sorry will the moron be that does not clean this new rifle before he shoots it, as most average Joes don’t.  To be honest, I think I just got lucky and got a great rifle.  Maybe it was hand picked by the guys at Centerfiresystems.com because I was super polite when I called them, as is the custom where I am from in the South and lead to a friendly but brief conversation.  My FFL dealer, also my boss, was just as polite and pleasant when he called to make the final arrangements.  Or maybe perhaps I just got lucky that day and they picked a great rifle.  I doubt, given the lack of attention to the assembly, that every one of their rifles looks as nice as mine or contains as many pristine parts.  One more thing that annoys me is a gap in-between the receiver cover and the upper receiver where they come together.  It is as if the upper receiver was cut for a different measurement that was different from the FN spec shape of the receiver cover.  This leaves a small, crescent moon shaped gap in-between the upper receiver and the receiver cover.  I am buying a UTG picatinny rail receiver and if it does not fit and leaves a gap I am going to add some metal on with my welder, fit it and grind it smooth, and Duracoat it black.

   Another thing that I was very disappointed about is furniture.  How cheap is it?  You are not going to believe this.  Imagine the steel FAL handguards, about 2mm thick steel, right?  Well, imagine 2mm thick plastic handguards made to look like the steel ones.  Lamentably worthless.  Woefully pathetic, even.  I can squeeze the handguards and watch them cave in and hear a slight cracking noise and the plastic stresses.  The best I can describe it is the plastic that is on one of those small portable bottles of hand sanitizer.  Yes, it’s that soft.  That is cheapness to the point of negligence, in my opinion.  The buttstock is a little more robust, but not much.  I think it is stronger mainly because the oval shape lends it more able to withstand pressure.  If you buy this rifle you WILL have to replace the handguards and buttstock.  I am replacing that garbage with OD green furniture from Tapco and am currently awaiting its arrival.  It will also have handguard and the SAW buttstock and pistol grip, also awaiting arrival.   I can’t wait because it is going to look so deliciously evil.  I would not give the original handguards an estimated life of more than 500 rounds as a gun safe decorator and as a real working field rifle not very long at all.  You just have to feel these things to understand how cheap and worthless they are. 

   Range results were surprising.  With crappy Winchester 7.62mm white box NATO stamped brass reloads and Barnaul softpoint I managed to get about 2.5 inch grouping out of my best 5 round string at an outdoor range at a known distance of 100m.  I had no high dollar rounds or handloads available.  To be honest I don’t care what it shoots with them because I don’t know anyone who has a head smaller than 2.5 inches.  I am not one of these mall ninjas or tacticows obsessed with sub MOA accuracy.  You aren’t going to shoot that well under stress any way.  And what are you going to shoot at beyond about 300m any way?  If you can’t be satisfied with accuracy fair enough to fit in someone’s skull at 300m then you are probably somewhere you shouldn’t be.  So I am very happy with the accuracy of this rifle.  It does shoot 2 inches low at 100m with the front sight adjusted all of the way to the lowest setting.  I did not have a file on hand, but next trip to the range I am bringing one to wear the sight down until I am hitting bulls-eye.  I will perform this task carefully and conservatively.  It is easy to take metal off, but a huge pain to add it.

  In closing if you were considering getting a 7.62 rifle and you chose FAL platform I would suggest you buy a DSA STG-58.  I called them when I was shopping around and asked them how much that rifle was.  The cost, $945 shipped.  This would have been my only cost because FFL transfers are free for me.  However, they warned me of a 5 month build time.  Right…no thanks, or so I reasoned then.  Hearing all of the white washing hype about Century lead me to decide to trust them.  When you consider that the new furniture cost me $120 plus $10 for the buttstock tool I could have spent $70 more and got a DSA STG-58.  And of course that $70 could easily have been spent accounting for my time in fixing what should have been a working rifle out of the box.  Then again, my Century runs quite well now.  And now it is going to look exactly the way I want it to.  To outfit the DSA would have cost even more.  So my synopsis is buy a DSA, honestly.  Or an Entreprise.  They offer Tapco furniture already on their rifle out of the box.  To be honest, I gave up on Entreprise because they are completely uncooperative with speaking to you about prices, even when you can get someone on the phone.  They encourage you on their website to just purchase online, and pay the full ridiculously inflated price.  Do not buy a Century unless you want to work on your rifle to get it running.  And I can almost guarantee you that if will not look as nice or shoot as straight as mine out of the box given the sorry craftsmanship.  My FAL is very nice and so far pretty reliable, but only after considerable extra money invested and time spent fixing it.

Levi

[Drewthetexan]

Wow. Über report! I can't believe the rails and feed ramp weren't polished. Maybe they missed that step? 


I finally have enough money to finish the build on my AR. I'm waiting for next gun-show (May 1-2) to hopefully make a cash purchase and save a bit off of internet "sale" prices.  I'll probably order the lower parts kit and butt stock now so I can have it assembled by the time I get the upper receiver assembly.



 

[Leviathan]

Hi Drew,

I've seen the A1 lower parts kits for sale.  Not to keep touting the A1, but I mean, it's a cheap way to get good condition Colt parts.  Plus who the hell needs an adjustable butt-stock any way?  I actually hate them.  I don't like wobbly shit.  It's either solid or it gets ripped off and replaced.  And that VLTOR shit is ridiculously over priced.  Sorry.  I won't pay an extra few hundred dollar for some designer part that has no tactical value.  While the mall ninjas are looking nice and shooting poorly I will use the money I saved to shoot more and embarrass them when they talk shit at the range.  There may be some A1 lowers at a large gun show.

Levi

[Drewthetexan]

Funny you mention the buttstock. I've been deliberating this point for awhile, and it's easy to get caught up in all the tacticool stuff out there.  The adjustable stocks all either seem more expensive than I care to spend right now or cheap. The standard M4 stock everyone is selling looks like a piece of crap, so I've been considering the A2 stock.

Still not excited about the A1, mostly because I want the A4 upper so I can change out sights, upgrade or whatever if I want to.

My remaining budget is about $850 (I spent $200 of it yesterday on ammo - I found a screamin' deal (relative to internet prices) on .380 FMJs at $13.99 for a 50 rd box, so I bought up 10. They had an inventory counter, and from the time I found the deal to actually making the purchase - about 7 hours - they had sold over 2000 boxes. Its a brand I've never heard of, PMC, but there were enough good reviews that it can't be that bad; certainly not worse than monarch! I also got 60 JHPs for my 9 to replace my old carry rounds.)

I found a company that sells a complete ar15 kit for $490 but I'm doubtful about it - probably because its too inexpensive compared to everyone else. It's everything I need except the rear sight. The uppers are apparently from LMT, and the barrels are Wilson and Mike Rock, and LMT apparently does the rest of the work on the Upper reciever assembly. The thing that gets me is that they won't say who manufactures the bolt carrier group, and I don't like that.

From their website, www.mapartsinc.com:

Most of our uppers are from Lewis Machine and Tool (LMT).Unless notied otherwise. Our barrels are Wilson Match /Rock /Match Grade 4140 Chrome Moly unless otherwise noted. LMT cuts, finishes and chambers the barrels. LMT assembles, times, headspaces, chambers and function test fires each barreled upper (not every third or fifth one as some suppliers might) and all of the other minor parts included are from current US Govt contract machine shops. The same first-rate US Govt contractor that we have always used for the bolt/carrier assemblies is still our supplier. They prefer anonymity. While we absolutely stand by and attest to the above, know that most of our component parts are "sanitized", that is- without marks, for obvious reasons when you consider the nature of the needs of the larger section of our customer base.

What the hell does that mean?   

LMT I'm ok with, as they seem to have a decent rep online. I've read that it is best to stick with one brand on all the upper reciever parts and, based on that, I would prefer to have an LMT BCG as everything else is also LMT - should I go ahead and buy a barreled upper from M&A.

I've also read mixed reviews about M&A Parts, Inc, but they've been around for awhile, so they must be doing something right at least some of the time.

One thing I've considered is to get the barreled upper from M&A @ $315: LMT (presumably) A4 upper, forged front sight base, 16" chrome-moly 1:9 twist heavy barrel, mid-length handguards w/ heatshield. Bravo Company USA sells an LMT BCG for $130. I *think* thats all I need for the upper receiver group at $445 plus shipping, and I will still need to get a rear sight. I'm not worried about the lower parts kit and A2 stock assembly so much, but that should be around another $120 or so. That puts me at $565ish plus shipping. The rest can go into the rear sight, mags, lubricant, cleaning supplies, ammo, and a new towel that I can fap into once I get my rifle completed. :)

I'm still looking around, reading, checking prices and such, and any input is great.

[Leviathan]

  Some companies like CMMG and Oly Arms don't like their name being on things when they have no control over the build.  I've read a forum post by the DPMS CEO where he laments that people are always calling and raising hell because their "DPMS" rifle that they bought at a gun show (that was actually a build on a DPMS receiver or uses their marked bolt carrier) is junk and they want it worked on.  Even though these parts are marked "KIT" you still have tacticow morons on arfcom talking shit about their "DPMS" rifle after DPMS refuses to work on them.  Any company in their right mind wants to avoid that.  As for their low price, maybe they are trying to save their business from failure?  

   You might want to think twice about your gun show strategy.  My experience is that the days of deals at gun shows are dead.  Assholes are greedy now.  They want top dollar for their worn out shit.  So many people are collecting guns and stocking up now that know jack and shit that there is too much money to be made selling your junk at high prices.  Some of them drop their prices when they realize they are not speaking to a total tool.  But it's generally a waste of my time.  The forums are the new places to find good deals.  And just like the smart guys went to gun shows and the tools went to the huge retail stores.  Now the tools are at the shows and the smart guys look at WTS on the forums.  In my opinion, this is where you should try to find your odds and ends like butt stock and such.  Too many people out there went crazy over these lame designer accessories and they are selling their old stuff cheap.  I've seen the old non adjusting M-4 post ban stocks that were made to look like the adjustable ones, plus with everything that is needed to install it, for $20 on WTS on a forum before.  I would use it.  Hell, why not?  I am a practical guy.  Damn the looks.  

   Though honestly, my FAL is starting to look awesome.  My Tapco hand guard and pistol grip never arrived, so I checked my order status and it was backordered.  I promptly canceled it and will never order from Code-3 again.   It was for the best because I decided that I needed a fore-grip.  For $20 more I could just buy the UTG quad-rail setup.  So I did, plus a fore-grip that splits into a bipod.  The whole deal was only $94 with shipping.  So check out Milsurpstuff.com.  They have great prices.  I bought a factory blemished SAW butt-stock for $24 (again, off of WTS on forums) and repainted it with Duplicolor truck bed liner, left over from when I lined the bed of my Dodge RAM and used on several gun projects, including to refinish two whole guns.  It looks nice and has that sandy, corked finish that you would expect on a truck bed.  And it’s tough, as you would expect.  I kept my Century pistol grip since it is the only furniture item that came with the rifle that was made worth a damn, being actually pretty stout and solid.  But it was fiberglass and looked like shit, so it got refinished with bed liner too.  I cooked them both on my stove to harden them quickly and when they cooled off I installed them both.  And it looks really sweet.  Even though my goals were practical in just obtaining cheap, well made furniture, after I repainted everything it looked awesome.  Of course, the UTG quad-rail is tacticool but it was the only way that I could get a fore-grip where I wanted it for my comfort.  Considering how long the hand-guards are on the FAL I couldn’t just use one of those cheap universal screw on units.  Now I have to decide if I am going to cut down the barrel or not.  Oh yeah, and I actually like the flash suppressor but eventually I do want one of those three prong Austrian ones.  Man, I can’t wait until my quad-rail and fore-grip arrives! ;)

Levi

PS - WHERE DID YOU FIND .380 THAT CHEAP?!?!?

[Drewthetexan]

I found the .380 at www.sgcusa.com. I really hope they aren't shitty rounds. I bought two boxes of Monarch 94gr JHPs from Academy and the powder was so bad that it felt like I was shooting off .22s. The powder wasn't even burning off completely and I had granulated powder all inside the slide, some in the barrel, and around the stall I was shooting from. I went through 65 of the 100 rounds before giving up from all the FTE's and FTF's because the slide wasn't going back enough.

The first round I fired was noticeably weak.  I squeezed the trigger again and got a *click* and without thinking went through tap, rack, and stopped short of bang because I suddenly thought to check my pistol. It had occurred to me that I might have a squib because of how weak the first shot was; the barrel was clear but it was nice to know I had failure to fire drill down enough to be automatic, and the sense to check things when they weren't normal.

Some companies like CMMG and Oly Arms don't like their name being on things when they have no control over the build.  I've read a forum post by the DPMS CEO where he laments that people are always calling and raising hell because their "DPMS" rifle that they bought at a gun show (that was actually a build on a DPMS receiver or uses their marked bolt carrier) is junk and they want it worked on.  Even though these parts are marked "KIT" you still have tacticow morons on arfcom talking shit about their "DPMS" rifle after DPMS refuses to work on them.  Any company in their right mind wants to avoid that.  As for their low price, maybe they are trying to save their business from failure?

 
This makes sense. It seems the recommendation to keep everything the same is for servicing issues should a problem arise and not issues with interchangeability of different manufacturer's parts. They are, after all, built to the same specs.

Which forums do you go to?  Thanks for the advice on the gun shows. I've been window shopping brands/prices/builds/etc and such quite a bit so I'd have a good idea of what I was looking at when I went. In the end, the all-mighty-dollar speaks loudest.

I am a practical guy.  Damn the looks.

LOL!  My roommate, who is very utilitarian about things, has an AR-15 with the adjustable stock. I told him I was going to get an A2 stock and he just looked at me like, wtf? As an aside, he was 82d airborne, pig ammo bearer and M47 Dragon gunner during the first gulf war. I still laugh when he tells of how you are supposed to "jump" out of the airplane on field problems, but, at 5'8" and 130lbs, with all the shit he had strapped to him all he could do was fall out of the airplane. 

I think I've decided to get a "dissipator" model. 16" barrel but longer sight radius. My understanding is that one of the aspects of a true dissipator is that the gase tube is longer so recoil is less and wear on the rifle is decreased. There is also the chance that the action won't fully cycle so it may be picky about ammo.  I think most kits will probably have the standard 16" with the carbine-length gas tube and full size rifle handguards, but I'm not sure and will need to clarify before buying (whether it is a true dissipator or a look-alike). Another thing to look at, but I REALLY like the way it looks with the added bonus of being functional.

I'm going to probably go with an anodized aluminum handguard, knurled and maybe fluted.  It'll look something like Jib's handguard from page 1 on this thread.

Post up a pic of the FAL.

[Leviathan]

   I don't think you have to worry about PMC ammo.  It's pretty good stuff.  I looked at the stats on the ammo and it's fairly anemic, like most commercial .380.  This is because of all the older shit pot metal guns made before SAAMI standards became the norm and there are still probably a few worthless Saturday night specials that have not made their way to the bottom of a river yet that would probably explode with modern high velocity powder.  Also, there are many teenie tiny .380's like the Ruger LCP that would be very unpleasant to shoot with hot ammo ... if the shooter is a whiney cunt.  So to get hot .380 ammo you need to buy a few name brands like CORBON or get ahold of some purpose made handloads.

   My old lady is seriously regretting buying her .380.  The ammo is hard to find and ridiculously expensive for the power you get.  It's pretty fucking sad when .45 and .380 is the same price.  It's why when I carry concealed I have a .44 snubby.  It only weighs 22oz and there is no question about if it is going to put someone on their ass or not.  .380 has an advantage of low noise and muzzleflash, though.  And it is capable of doing the job fairly well at fist fight range and a little beyond, where most self defense shootings occur any way.  I am not saying my choice is better.  Not everyone is 6'1" and 235lbs like I am.  I just am rambling.  anyway.  If you want hot defense .380 get CORBON, Hornady, or Black Hills. 

As for the pics, that might take a while.  I will get them up when I can.  I will certainly be buying that .380 for my better half to do some target shooting.  Thanks for telling me about that deal.  Oh yeah.  The forums I go onto are arfcom (though I hate the ass holes there, I only go for WTS), FAL Files, The High Road, and occassionally a few others.  THR is a huge resource.

Levi

[Drewthetexan]

Yeah, the PMC is just for range time. I *just* got the shipment in right now, 6 day turnaround - which is pretty good - although now that I open the box I'm missing one box of ammo (the 9mm jhps), .380 is all there.

 I typically have federal hydrashoks in the .380 if I am carrying it. During summer time I don't worry so much about penetration but I would never carry it in winter. .380s are definitely a mixed bag. I think the ammo cost is complete bullshit.

My usual carry is a S&W M&P9, with CORBON +P. Downside though is muzzleflash on those loads. Very bright!

LOL @ .44 snubby. Yeah, that would definitely do it and then some.

No worries on the pics, but enquiring minds want to know!